Pathways to Peace, with guest Reem Alsalem

For this episode in the Pathways to Peace series, the focus is on the particular impact of violence and insecurity on women and girls.
My guest is Reem Alsalem who, for 17 years until 2016, worked with the UN High Commissioner for Refugees, and then became an independent consultant in humanitarian action and refugee protection. She is now the UN Special Rapporteur on violence against women, its causes and consequences. 

Human Rights Magazine is produced by The Upstream Journal magazine. The host, Derek MacCuish, is editor of both. If you agree that informed reporting on human rights and social justice issues is important, your support would be welcome. Please rate the podcast wherever you listen to it, and tell your friends about episodes that you find interesting. Why not consider making a financial contribution to help us cover costs?  You are always welcome to email with your comments.

Transcript

Hello, and welcome to this episode of human rights magazine. My name is Derek MacCuish. For this episode in the pathways to peace series, I'm pleased to welcome Reem Alsalem. For 17 years, until 2016, she worked with the UN High Commissioner for Refugees, and then became an independent consultant in humanitarian action and refugee protection. She is now the UN Special Rapporteur on violence against women, its causes and consequences. 

Hello, Reem. Thank you for joining me today. For this episode, we'll be discussing the harm that affects women and girls and the violence, the insecurity, not only in terms of widescale conflict, but also at community levels. And you've emphasized the disproportionate harm that comes to women and girls. But what what are that let's start at the beginning. What are the sources of that harm, that violence and insecurity? Where does it come from?

Reem Alsalem

So, women and girls worldwide are subjected to really systematic, pervasive violence that they experience on a daily basis. We get a sense of that, by the fact that we know that one in three women has experienced some kind of violence. And today, actually, the UNODC and UN Women published a report on femicide pointing out how elevated also gender related killings have become. So you get a sense how serious it is, especially if we know that data is hard to get, good data. So it's underreported. And so you have underlying causes of social norms, you have political, discriminatory political and legal systems, you can have religious norms that are deeply patriarchal. And then you have, you know, systematic system violence that can be perpetuated either because of economic structures, because of institutional gaps. So when this all comes together, you get this violence. 

And of course, in addition to women and girls being just generally exposed to it because of their sex, or their gender, this identity, as women and girls also overlaps with other identities, you know. So they might also be members of minorities, they might have a political opinion, they might be members of a certain religious group. So then when you put all this together, then within the group of women, there are groups that are even more exposed to violence than others. And that, of course, differs from one country to another in one context or another.

Derek MacCuish

If we want to mitigate and bring an end to this violence and achieve a degree of peace. How do we do that? For example, what would be the role of governments in in bringing that? 

Reem Alsalem

Okay, so I think maybe we should look at, because you said it in the beginning, what is the absence of peace, right? Is it because you can have full-fledged conflict, but you can also have a situation of tension, turmoil, that it's not yet a total absence of peace or a breakdown of society. And I'm deeply convinced that looking at how women and girls are treated in a society can be a good barometer or thermometer for keeping track of the human rights situation in the country, and also how it is deteriorating or how it's improving. Because what we see is that when the situation deteriorates in a country, very often the situation of women and girls or groups of women and girls get worse immediately alongside minorities and other vulnerable groups, basically, those are that are vulnerable and marginalized, get more vulnerable and marginalized ahead of, you know, a full blown sort of escalation into conflict or deterioration or breakdown of society. Why? Because they are the most among usually the most vulnerable and because there is the system allows for it. 

So the legal system does not protect them. It's weak on prevention, a country would not have proper policies in place to respond to violence, to offer support to victims. Victims would not come forward. There's, yeah, there's all these studies. Sorry, I'm sitting somewhere where they are working. 

So therefore, I think keeping track of the treatment of women and girls, or also the level of gender based violence is a good indicator of how society is faring. And whether it's doing better or it's doing worse, and therefore trying to then put in place a comprehensive approach. And I know we use that word a lot, but it's actually the right word to use, because it's not just the responsibility of government. Also, the private sector has a role to play, media, we have to work on education's proper education. Since you know, from a very young age, you have to work with religious leaders; they have to work on all these things together. And it's a handful, I mean, nobody is claiming this is an easy thing to do. But you cannot approach it in piecemeal. And you have to be very comprehensive, systematic and long term about it. And you have to have a political will actually to also dedicate resources and take some courageous, brave decisions.

Derek MacCuish

In the first interview I did for this podcast, Marie Dennis argued very strongly that amount of resources put into militarization, into weaponry, dwarfs all other spending, and she wishes that those resources could be devoted to the kinds of things I think that you just mentioned, education, other forms of support, I'm assuming that her you agree with her?

Reem Alsalem

Yes, I do. I don't agree with people who say we don't have enough resources. I think COVID has demonstrated, actually, the financial crisis has demonstrated that there is money to go around. The thing is that governments and those in power decide not to allocate money except to say certain things. So there is money to bail banks out. There is money to, you know, for the war in Ukraine. But there isn't money for ending violence against women. And there isn't money for social protection schemes and countries and there isn't money for I mean, you know, so it's very selective, but there is money

Derek MacCuish

Is the lack of political will related to the majority of political leaders being male?

Reem Alsalem

That's an interesting question. I think the lack of women in leadership positions affects decision making, not just on GBV issues, so gender based violence, and how to come up with everything. You know, that's why for example, we say that we were going to get better solutions for combating the climate crisis if we have more women being involved, also at high level decision making, but frankly, in everything in all conversations around climate, so women, by definition, being half of society would make any decision making a better, fuller, and more comprehensive, not because they are better than men, but obviously, because they also see things from a certain lens, and they would also factor in their own sort of specific concern, including those that have to do with the fact of being women with reproductive and, you know, and sexual health needs that are different from men. So yeah,

Derek MacCuish

A few minutes ago, you mentioned the vulnerability of women and girls, amongst other vulnerabilities of minorities. And so, perhaps we can also bring in a little bit of, of class analysis and looking at the distinction between, you know, the rich and the quite poor. And the evaporation of the middle class and in some parts of the world, like where I live in North America, so poverty, how the dynamics of poverty, sit with violence and insecurity with women and girls. 

Reem Alsalem

So there are two things that come to mind. You know, they've been doing studies on the food crisis now, especially with the with the war in Ukraine, we know that the food crisis is exacerbated, it's become a global problem that they've found and I can't exactly remember the percentage but what's clear is that women experienced food crisis differently and are affected by it also, disproportionately, because when there's less food on the table, the women will get less of that also, I think because of their choice. Did, you know, the woman would maybe naturally prefer to feed her children, but also because of the other dynamics inside a family or a society?

 So that's one example. The other is the climate crisis. So we know that when it comes to poverty, the number of, you know, women are among the predominantly among the poor. This is just across the board. So therefore, if we know that the climate crisis is exacerbating poverty, that by definition also means that more women than men will be affected by the climate crisis. I mean, it's just one example. 

Derek MacCuish

Well, let's shift a bit and think globally. What about the role of international law? What about the role of international institutions, what can be done on the broadest scale?

Reem Alsalem

So this is something I was talking about yesterday, they are commemoration of the 20th of November that was organized by UN Women at the UN headquarters. And as you know, there are international treaties that really are at the core of the international protection regime and women's rights protection. And for example, one of them is the Convention on the Rights necessary on the Elimination of Discrimination Against Women, the CEDAW. And then the other one is, when we look at girls, is a Convention on the Rights of the Child, these two are among the most widely ratified conventions in the world, actually, irrespective of whether this country is Global North, Global South, the economic situation. Okay, some countries of course have, or many countries have, some reservations, that's sort of normal. But they present a very strong foundation for holding states accountable, in addition to other treaties that that are also affect women by virtue of them being human, and also principles of non-discrimination, equality, irrespective of any grounds. 

So my issue, what I said yesterday, is that these frameworks that are so solid and so fundamental, are coming under attack, we're hearing more and more voices in different corners of the world, you hear them by sort of conservative forces, you can call them fundamentalist forces, backward, you know, backlash, whatever you want to call them, that, that want to actually do away with these that are saying, why are we signatories to this, and some of these are also regional instruments like the Istanbul Convention, which is the only convention that very specifically and comprehensively addresses the issue of violence against women, because the other doesn't really spell it out that much. 

So now, you hear all these sort of whispers, and sometimes even allowed Christ to withdraw from these instruments to do away with them, because they don't go along with our traditions, or our religion or our views on life. And the problem I see is that states who have signed these conventions and are the ones that really are accountable, and are the ones that have translated them into national law, aren't just letting this happen, are also at times entertaining it or are silent about it, or are putting civil society really at the frontline to deal with, with this, and it's very problematic. 

So I feel that globally, there has to be a move to re-assert commitment to these standards, and to commit really to respecting them. And to own them and not just leave the sort of civil society be massacred, you know, by these by these conservative forces or forces of backlash. Yeah, so that would be that would be one.

And then we have, of course, a lot of work to do on areas where there's a gap in legislation at the international level. And one example is, for example, online violence. There's a lot of violence perpetuated against women online, in digital platforms. And so there is a need, really, to regulate online space, not just for violence against women, but just also in general .Also hate speech, incitement of hatred, things that really can create serious problems in society, but also can lead to violence being committed against minorities, against groups that are different from us, so that these kinds of spaces have to be regulated because we can't have a human rights regime offline and a different one online, or no human rights regime online. So that needs to be done. 

And then the third point, I would say, and this is something I'm passionate about, is, of course, violence is not only committed, or entertained by, the state but non state actors also are involved in committing violence. And an example of this is companies, especially those that are, you know, in extractive business, when they go to areas in countries, their activities will be accompanied by activities that lead to increased violence against the population that is residing there. So indigenous people, rural, you know, farmers, people in rural areas. And a lot of this violence can translate in the forms of increased trafficking for sexual exploitation, prostitution of women and girls. And the problem, of course, is that we don't have a binding treaty yet that regulates the behavior of companies. We have the business human rights framework, you know, but it's not binding, and really, there has to be ways for companies to, you know, strengthen their due diligence but also to be formally held accountable for violations of human rights, including those women and girls.

Derek MacCuish

Yes, and I'm in Canada and, of course, the behaviour of Canadian mining corporations overseas is a big topic of discussion here. And the very slow progress by the government in bringing forward legislation and on corporate responsibility and accountability. In terms of talking about corporations, there's the expanding legislation in different places, the European due diligence law and other legislation to try to restrict the harm by corporations that are there. What other roles do you see? Do you see positive roles? Do you see constructive roles that can be played by corporations? The power of corporations is quite substantial in the world, and surely they have a role to play in moving forward.

Reem Alsalem

I haven't engaged so much with individual companies on this, but it also boils down again to true political will and dedication of resources, but also making tough decisions about profit. And, you know, if certain activities should be discontinued, simply because they are incompatible with the right to a healthy and safe environment for the people who live there. 

And I've been in areas for example, where it's been very clear that the pollution in the air or the water or the earth has created also problems for in pregnancies for women, they've had either weak babies or deformed babies or it's affected the ability to get pregnant. I mean, this is a very specific, for example, impact of some of the activities that cause environmental degradation and its impact on the health of women. 

But I think also there are for example, internally, unions, I've seen interesting examples where workers’ unions, if they have also more women and they have, let's say, groups of women that deal specifically with the problems or encourage specifically the participation and addressing of issues to do with women, that's very helpful.  Of course, including in companies, in boards, in management positions, more women. 

And also, companies are bound, as you know living in Canada, in many countries, they are bound by for example, in Latin America, to do a free and honest and authentic consultation with indigenous peoples before they start operating in their in their territories. And to get the consent, the free and informed consent of indigenous groups. Of course, this is not everywhere in the world, but in many countries, they have this provision, so to do it really in a in a fair and sustainable manner, and also not to use their social responsibility programs as a way just to market you know, sort of a positive image that is really not there, that is really just air and is not sincere, and just a PR stunt. So they throw a lot of money into maybe projects that on the surface look great. But in fact, and when you look deeper, don't really impact women positively or children, don't lead to the improvement of the situation for the communities, are not sustainable for the environment, etc, I think there we have quite a lot of issues like that. 

So really the starting point has to be effective legislation, effective legislation, but also effective monitoring, ending impunity for actions like this. And either fortunately, or unfortunately, when it comes to companies, it seems that the thing that hurts them the most is when there are court cases against them and they lose, right? The problem with that, as you know, is that it's costly. And so the affected populations either don't have the money, or don't have access to lawyers that can help them, or don't know how, or are often fighting for their own lives and for survival. 

So they wouldn't even have the ability to put something like this together. And fifth is that it takes an enormous amount of time, when a case actually is admitted. And if it's progressing in court, it can take years before victims can get a ruling. And by then, you know, things might have gotten a lot worse, they might have gotten displaced. Further, they might have lost further territory and land and so on and so forth. 

Derek MacCuish

We're about to wrap up. Is there anything else that you'd like to comment on? Or something, where we somehow haven't covered, that you'd like to discuss?

Reem Alsalem

Yes, so okay, I feel two things. One is, of course, that we see very clearly that women continue to be very angry, very vocal about being excluded, marginalized, killed because of their sex or gender, you only have to look at Afghanistan or Iran to realize that. So you know, women are continuing to resist and at very high price, so that we see that, we hear them, we feel for them, and they're there to stay until they get what they're entitled to. 

But at the same time, I feel also that there is always either a hijacking of the gender agenda for bigger political issues, or a deep prioritization of women's rights issues, again, for greater political gains. So for example, take the COP that just concluded, they couldn't agree on the gender of one this year, was postponed for next year, despite the fact that everybody agrees that women's participation is important, despite the fact that there's wide consensus that the climate crisis is felt differently and exacerbates the violence already experienced by women and girls, but somehow it got sort of postponed. 

And then when certain, let's say big forces, raise women issues, it's usually selective. It's usually, again, used as a tool for broader processes. And there's no consistency. And I feel the lack of consistency undermines, you know, the credibility of the involvement. 

So to give you an example, some states get very worked up about the situation of, let's say, women in Afghanistan, but if you look at the way they treat migrant women back at home, and the way they exclude them from programs or the way they push them back at the borders, and don't let them in. I mean, you could say these are also women that need attention and support. So you're not being consistent between what you're saying, on your foreign policy and what you're doing at home. 

And I think this kind of selectivity and instrumentalisation is harmful to the overall human rights debate, because then you have people sitting in their societies and saying, ah, there are countries that are just you know, they're just not walking the talk. They're just being selective. They're just instrumentalizing the gender issue or certain issues so it weakens its legitimacy and it weakens the impact because then there is a resistance to it by people who can see through these double standards or triple standards. I don't know if you if I made myself clear.

Derek MacCuish

Well, you've been very clear! Thank you for joining me today, and I wish you the very best in all your efforts.